• Reference Number: DX-624/6/29
• Ref No: DX-624/6/29
• Date: Mar 2000
• Level: Item
• Extent: 1 item
• Format: Mini-dv (video)
• Description: Language: English
  Running time: 40 minutes 00 seconds
  Transcript (copyright BEME):
  Int Thank you very much for agreeing to talk to us.
  
  Int Could I ask you your name please ?
  
  MB M - may I spell it for you, MB
  
  Int Thank you
  
  Int What's your date of birth ?
  
  MB Am I supposed to tell you that ? I'm not telling you that.
  
  Int You're not?
  
  MB No
  
  laughter
  
  In Where were you born ?
  
  MB Barbados
  
  Int OK.
  
  Int First I am going to ask some questions about before you came to live here, what do you remember about your family relationships and early
  childhood memories when you lived in Barbados ?
  
  MB It was beautiful, I think at that time people in the West Indies thought that they were poor, you know, in economic terms but coming to England
  made me realise that we weren't poor at all. Even if we were poor in economic terms we were rich in family traditions and caring in the community you know I remember my mum and dad died while I was a little girl and she left eight of us and everyone in the community took - some people took two some took three we never had no adoption system but it was part of like good will because like in communities or what we called villages in Barbados. You always had people of good will, you know like you have social workers here well we have people of good will and they all joined together my aunties and extended family and took care of the family. However in 1960 my elder sister came over and I was very attached to her and I followed her in 61- the 13th of March 1961.
  
  Int You came over to England ?
  
  M Uh huh
  
  Int Do you have any specific memories of your childhood ? Was it a happy childhood ?
  
  M All childhoods are happy as long as you're not abused. I mean in the West Indies what could be happier there running across the fields, taking your goats out, having chickens. You have your sun come up from half past six in the morning and then the moonlight came up from about 9 'o' clock to 11or 1 in the night, you know, what could be happier ? In those terms because we weren't affluent at the time you know because in English terms you'd call it a third world country - a newly developed country - we weren't as affluent as England but then on the other hand when I came to understand English society this society wasn't affluent either, it hadn't just come along, because I realised that in the 1930's and 1920's, you know, people walk about barefooted they were bedraggled in much the same way you would have seen in the early 1950's or forties in Barbados.
  
  Int You said your parents had 8 children
  
  M yes, they did.
  
  Int Where were you ?
  
  M seventh
  
  int You were seventh, ok.
  
  In Did you go to school in Barbados ?
  
  M Of course I went to school, yes, secondary school, went from infants to secondary, you know infants, primary, secondary the same - you must
  realise in Barbados, you always heard it referred to as Little England, because you know being over here and going back an all ( ?) say in the last ten years I've been going back every year I find Barbadians at times are more English than the English themselves, because they still have afternoon tea at half past three, you know so it was not much different it was very English controlled Barbados, so it wasn't much different.
  
  Int What were your experiences of religion living in Barbados ? Did you have a religious upbringing ?
  
  M Of course you have to its part of the stability of our country the same as in education. If you go to Barbados100% of people, say 98 % of people go to church in much the same way that 98 % of people in Barbados are educated you know its stability. I went to the Holiness Church we had to go to church twice on a Sunday and every night some times (laugh) at night you know, you'd be going and you sit at 7 '0' clock and church ends at 11 '0' clock, you'd be tired as a little girl and you'd try to doze off and then the grandma or aunty would poke you, like that, you know,you had to wait up and see it through. When I was 11 I was baptised, you know in the Christian faith, you know that was it
  
  Int Would you say you had a strict up bringing ?
  
  M Not really strict we just adhered to you know the ethics and the values that you have within the home and if you didn't you'd get a good hiding and that was it, it was part and parcel of life.
  
  Int OK, did you have a job in Barbados ?
  
  M No I was only 16 when I came here I came out of school and came from Barbados over here.
  
  Int So can we now move on to the process of migration. What were your reasons for .. you said your sister came here
  
  M My eldest sister, yes
  
  Int and then you decided to follow on ?
  
  M yes, they sent me over cause I was the young one, apart from my other sister Lydia, she died at 38 ??? but I followed my sister over
  
  Int and were your family living in Wolverhampton at the time ?
  
  MB Yes
  
  Int So you came straight here ?
  
  M Straight here
  
  Int And how did you.. did you come by boat ?
  
  M We came by the S.S. Sorento, it took us six weeks to get here
  
  Int 6 weeks
  
  MB so I can always boast that I've had a cruise.
  
  Laughter - oh dear
  
  Int and did you come alone when you came ?
  
  
  M Yes I did, I was an adventurous young lady I was. You see some aspects of West Indian life - it's a matter of fact that we say that we know no fear we are adventurers in the sense that you find you get a lot of people emigrating to America , you've got emigration to Canada. But I think with black people you always go for a better life you know and I think sometimes in the interim if we had sat down and think, well you know, we could have develop in much the same way if we had stayed at home, we would have been a lot happier we would have developed in much the same way as those brothers and sisters we left at home, but you know we always think we want it now, the now society.
  
  Int What do you remember of the journey coming over here ?
  
  M A lot of people were ill, but a lot of people took care of each other you know the seasickness and what have you. The food was - I never liked the smell of cabbage -I thought that was awful and I think I was sick for a couple of days. But there was a nice lady from St Vincent I always think of her, I never got her name, you know, who took care of me in the sense that she brought soups and made me tea and what have you for me whilst I was laid up in the cabin.
  
  Int and when you arrived, what were your first impressions ?
  
  M It was awful. I looked and I looked around I saw on the 13th March there was like mist, you know, and I though what's going on. I said 'what's all the smoke' and my sister said 'it's not smoke its the way the country is' and she had this big dark coat and I said what you wearing that big jacket for and
  she said you got to keep warm, became in those days in the sixties the style was, you know, crinoline. I used to have a crinoline, I used to have what they called a wire waist, my waist was about 22 inches and I had a nice bum and nice chest and everything else
  
  Laugh
  
  MB and that's the thing, that was how I came over. We weren't told to bring a jacket or anything and I was freezing and I had in those days, we were wearing a pill box hat in the same way the English used to in the forties and fifties- you know the pill box hat. But it was very daunting to be honest when I came and saw everything, but the greatest shock of all was when I saw white folks when I was going home in the car I saw white folks sweeping the street and white dustbin men. I said to my sister what's happening ? and she said they work the same as we do. Because in the West Indies you were taught to believe, because there was no television, there was no communication only what you read in The Advocate, the newspaper and what have you. We always put the white folks up on a pedestal we were taught to believe they were better than us.
  
  You know over there you had rich white folk, you have poor white folks but it was always the status quo that the white people came away. There were some white Barbadians and they had a servant or two to take care of the children. And I always remember my brother, he was a butler, he was one of the finest butler in Barbados and he used to wash the clothes as well. You know he used to wash the family clothes, cook the food he knew everything about that family and it was only after I grew up and came over here and looked at it in context and thought to my self that white folks can't really say anything about us, you know the West Indies because we took care of you - you understand- even through it was for a pittance but never the less we took care of leaders, you understand what I'm saying,
  
  Int Yes
  
  MB we took care of leaders, we took care of the household we took care of the husband's drawers, their knickers and everything so
  
  Laughter
  
  Int Are you pleased that you came over at that time or do you wish you could have stopped ?.
  
  M No, no I'm pleased even now looking back I'm pleased for the experience because it brought that veil from my eyes to make me know there is no difference. You know, and to be honest the only time I learnt of racism is when I came to this country, cause back in Barbados you were either poor black, middle class, black rich, poor white, middle class white we intermarried, we thought white folks black folks and Asians there is no difference. The only thing we know is that we have to go into town to get our shopping and the big stores and what have you but I mean that's how its was.
  
  Int OK, so moving on to when you were settled and living in Wolverhampton. Did you start work more or less straight away ?
  
  M No, I didn't, I think I stayed at home for about ? a good 9 months or so you know. We lived in rooms, you know, big room and I think there were about 3 or 4 families but the houses were quite large at the time and the family lives together. So my first job was doing this hand press work. It was some sort of machine that you put things in then you spin it around. I spun it around and it knocked me out - you have to spin it around and then catch it, then spin it back again but you have to get the knack of it and I didn't get the knack of it, that was at Dye Castings in Wolverhampton.
  
  But then I progressed from there and I got married. I had my children then went into nursing I started as an auxillary nurse at Bilston Royal Hospital then in 1969 I decided to go into nursing and I was controlled and I wouldn't say stupid but we were afraid to challenge the status quo at the time. You know I said to Matron, I said 'Matron, I would like to do my SRN,' she said 'Nurse B, no, no, no, you've got your young family growing up, your three young children it'd be too hard for you to do that, I suggest you go on the SEN course you know it takes only 2 years and you know you're a very good nurse.' And you know I went home and thought about it you know, she was right, then I came to the realisation but as a matter of fact I passed the course in eighteen months instead of two years and I thought what the bloody hell has this women done to me, you know telling me that I couldn't do it.
  
  Anyway I stayed into nursing until 1977 and I remember my daughter Pauline had Chicken Pox and I said to the Matron at the time, I said 'Matron, my daughter isn't well and I need a couple of weeks off to look after her.' She said to me 'how dare you Nurse B' she said 'you will not tell me when you have your time off, I will tell you when you can have your time off' and she flounced out of the room. And I get back down the ward and I though well after all that I thought she shouldn't speak to me like that, within my heart and I though who the bloody hell do you think you are, you know, so I went right back up in the ward and I called her by name, I said 'Matron, may I have a word with you,' she says 'yes nurse B, but if its regarding having time off my word stands' so she came into the office so I backed off the door so she couldn't get out and to be honest I told her. I said 'listen', I says 'my daughter is sick at home' and I says 'I'm having the time off,' she says 'I've told you already Nurse B'. I said 'let them tell me something' I said 'look at this ward, you seen any of these patients look like me', she says 'what do you mean ?' and I said 'exactly what I've asked you' I said 'this is the last time I will be working in this establishment' and I took the apron off, I took the cap off and that was the September. And that September it was a Friday evening I remember I enrolled for Bilston College from the September in the morning and I went to Bilston College for a year and with that year I did 4 'O' levels and 2 'A' Levels and from that time I went onto the Polytechnic and I did two years a Diploma in Higher Education and thought good M and the third year I did my degree.
  
  Int What was your degree in ?
  
  M Social Sciences, and at the same time I was working to support the family - nights as well as a nurse yes, because you know to eke the budget out. So I can't say that my time in Wolverhampton, it wasn't wasted, it was certainly colourful, it wasn't wasted it was colourful but on the other hand as I say if things were different I would have preferred to stay in my own country.
  
  Even now I yearn, you know when you yearn for home, when I go home, I go for four weeks in a year and I retrace the steps that I never walked, you know I retrace the steps I never walked, when I say I retrace the steps, like within the short time I've been in Barbados I walked in some places but when I started going back these places have changed so I retrace those steps and walk the paths that I didn't before which I enjoy immensely. To be at home for the four
  weeks and to be among my people where I don't feel an alien you know. I don't feel people are discriminating against me, you know, I have a feeling of freedom and acceptance. In England I don't, even though I've been here for 38 years because working now, you know, even though I've got my degree and after that I went and got a certificate in Health Education, you know, I taught mental health at the Poly. I taught at Bilston College. I 'm not a person, you know, I like to stay in the background, when I like to do things I like to do them properly and I like to say well in my heart I have achieved things not just for me but for others and I think with this context I feel quite satisfied. But on the side of racism, people might say to me, or we might discuss and say it's abating but I wouldn't say its abating it's going underground, under different cover. And I think it's an under current of racism, you know, in the sense, within schools you have quite a lot of excluded children and I feel that teachers especially, I know they are over worked, but the status quo is such that is you know, what I say goes, and I sometimes feel that when children are misbehaving you know, within schools and you've got a white controlled environment for black children. I feel that teachers and authorities should look a little beyond that, not continue to look at the families and say well it's the families, they need to look within themselves to see you know, what traits they hold within. You must realise that if I speak to you in the way I speak to my
  daughter in a cultural way, I don't think that you would take too kindly to that. And teachers must realise that the way they speak to children, you can't speak to all children that way, especially children of different cultural backgrounds because its misinterpreted, do you understand what I' m saying ?
  
  Int Yes
  
  MB So I feel that sometimes people should look beyond or underneath, you know, these things before rising to issues saying OK you've been rude, you're excluded from school. I mean for instance, in Barbados you go to school and you're rude to the teacher, or you haven't done your work you've got the wider community to answer to because the teachers they know all your parents, they know the family, you know, and you'll be taken to task for that. Over here that's not the same, you know, you know, you only know about when the children are getting into trouble or when it becomes such a focus that you can do nothing at all about it.
  
  Int You mentioned aspects of racism, do you think it doesn't happen so often now as it did when you first came or have you seen any difference or do you think its still the same ?
  
  MB It's still here I can't say that Britain is not a racist society, you understand what I am saying, because on the other hand you can contradict yourself in saying that because when there are disasters say in what we call third world countries you'd be surprised to see the amount of money that English folks would send abroad.
  
  Int Yes
  
  MB So this is my theory, you know that if English folks were really racist would they be moved by their heart to send money to people away, you know, that's how I think. But I feel that the status quo, this old colonial status quo. I feel that people want to keep it alive, you know, say that well we're your betters. You understand what I'm saying.
  
  Int Yes
  
  MB Yes, they go back, because when a dog is wounded it goes back to its own lair and its own floor boards, so they go back to their own ways of understanding the world, but they have to change, you can't hold on to racist, to racist ways and behaviours for ever, something will have to change.
  
  Int OK
  
  Int When you first came to live here you mentioned you lived in just rooms - was
  it ?
  
  MB Yes, you rented rooms for two pounds fifty a week or two pounds fifty shillings that was the old money, yes two pounds fifty.
  
  Int and how many of you lived in a room ?
  
  MB sometimes, 1, 2 ,3 ,4, 5 of us.
  
  Int 5 of you
  
  MB Yes, but you contain yourself, as I say its not different, it wasn't any different than in the 30's and the 40's when white folks had to do exactly the same you know so, you know, we were just picking up on what you threw away twenty years ago.
  
  Int ok, you said you had children
  
  MB yes, I've got
  
  Int you said you had 3 children didn't you
  
  MB No I've got four children
  
  Int four children
  
  MB yes, I've got four children
  
  Int How have they found it like with education, how have they done ?
  
  MB Well I would say they did quite well - um - now but - um I say especially my daughter she went to an all white girls grammar school and um - I had to do what a mother had to do to protect my daughter in the sense that I had to speak out for her. I never went to the teachers because they used to write notes and call her black pig and Gollywog and why don't you go swing in the trees and I realised she was being withdrawn when she came home from school she always ran upstairs to her room. I said 'what you going upstairs for ?'. She said 'I just want to do some writing mum' and one day I went into the room and there were these piles of notes and I thought, well I said, I'll see these people, I'll go see the teacher and she said 'no mum, because if you see the teacher you'll make it worse for me'. I said 'well, P, I have to do something about it I can't let you suffer like this' so I said I shan't do anything but like a good old mother I ask her the name of the children and she told me and I went down there to the school about half past eight in the morning and I asked the other kids do you know so and so and so and so, they said yes. So I said point her out when she comes and I got all them together and I said 'I am P's mum' and I said 'you've been calling her names and telling her she's a gollywog' and this and this I said 'why you doing this ?' they said 'we don't like her as she's the only one in school ' - so I says 'OK' I says 'this is your blouse, 'cause they were wearing nice navy and white I say this blouse is white isn't it,' she says 'yes' I said 'what's the colour of your skin' she says '- um- pinky - pink a sort of pink' - I says 'OK, you got a cat at home,' she says 'yes', I say 'you got a dog,' she says 'yes.' I said 'when you go home you take your hand and you pull away the hair of the dog or skin of the cat and that's the colour of your skin'. And I say 'you say her hair is woolly like a gollywog' I says 'have you seen the horse's hair, 'she says 'yes', 'the tail,' I say 'that's what your hair is like. 'And I said,' you said she got a nose, a big, flat, black nose' I said, 'have you seen the fowl's beak' I said 'that's what your nose is like,' but some people might say I was racist in doing that to children to say that to a child but I did that to make people make people realise you can always find something about someone that will make them feel bad. You know and I've always taught my children to be very proud of their colour. You know it can be diluted but it can't be taken away. You know I say 'Her hair that you say is woolly its like sheep's hair I said you feel mine.'and you know when P had her 21st birthday two of the girls came and she says Mrs B, I thank you very much for that lesson you gave us because we've taught our children the same.'
  
  Int You see
  
  MB so you have to be, you have to be, it not a matter of fact that you know some are going to come in and tell my children, tell me that he called me a black bastard. I says black you are but a bastard you are not. Don't be afraid of being black. I say that's the colour its no big deal and I says who knows whether the colour is black or white its just a name that people have made up.
  
  Int and have you still carried on your religious up bringing since you came here ? do you still go to church ?
  
  MB yes, yes, going to church is one thing, but to be a Christian is a different thing, everybody goes to church, but I try to be a Christian. I try very hard indeed, you know, turn the other cheek sometime but not too far.
  
  Int and what do you and you family enjoy doing in your spare time in Wolverhampton ?
  
  MB All my family are grown up, they are all married and I've got 6 grandchildren now.
  
  Int have you
  
  MB yes, I read a lot and write a lot. The little girl, my little, the last one, we let say we are companions in the sense that we do quite a lot of things together, she like her dances but I like solitude now, you know. I've done it all, you know, the only things I haven't done is like smoke and drink but I've seen quite a lot of the world in the sense that the job that I was doing prior to this I travelled a lot you know with Donald to other countries and um..
  
  Int So you went with Donald, did you ?
  
  MB Yes, before he's gotten old
  
  laughter
  
  Int So there's a point on here about achievements, but you've already said you've
  achieved a lot since you have been here with your degree and ?
  
  MB Yes I've achieved, its been hard but its been quite rewarding you know and but the only drawbacks, and a lot of black people will tell you this because we talk, and as women we talk you know its a recognition within the institutions, you know, I mean for instance, sometimes you sit on a committees and you might say something, a question is asked, you ask the question and you put it in your cultural way, you understand and it is bypassed, and then you find a white folk will take it up and relate to the panel or to the all white panel what it is your about and it is taken up and you know things like that pisses me off. - oh - sorry
  
  laughter
  
  MB You know it really gets to you, you know, its the recognition and acknowledgement that you've done something really well, you know. I feel that if, in a sense, white folks could just let go of this thing of trying to be always superior and all ways trying to say you know I've done this and let people, give other people, a chance I think the world would be a lot easier.
  
  Int Yes, and would you ?.. how would you think you're life would have been different in you'd stopped in Jamaica ?
  
  MB I wasn't in Jamaica - Barbados
  
  Int Sorry Barbados
  
  MB Well I don't know because I couldn't see into the future but - um- I think I would still gotten married, would have still been quite a bit feisty when I was young, I might have had a career change or something because I always liked, enjoyed writing and I liked writing plays and you know I might have been different, but I don't know.
  
  Int You can't say
  
  MB No you can't, how can I ?
  
  Int would you ever consider going back there ?
  
  MB of course, yes, that's my ambition
  
  Int That's you're dream to go back ?
  
  MB It's not a dream, I don't dream it you know is in the affirmative I want to go back home you know I want to take my daughter and granddaughter away along the beach I want to pitch marbles with them in my old age I want to, because going back I use to do some, I'll say naughty things, but we used to have some, used to call them poor white folks, Mrs ?? you see her in Wolverhampton, on British TV before, Mrs F from down the hill and as a girl we used to throw rock stones on the roof and run off. I remember a couple of years ago I went down the hill and saw her, she said you girl M, she says ';I remember you, you got a bit big, but I remember you ', She said 'I remember you used to throw rocks and stones at my house and run off.' So I said to her 'this is my daughter and my granddaughter' she says 'you brought them to throw stones at me again'. I says 'no I haven't. '
  
  You know, and um, those are things I enjoy going home I enjoy picking fruit off the tree, I enjoy calling the chicks in. I enjoy going from house to house and being malicious. When I say being malicious with the women, you know. We sit and talk about sex, about the men, about fashion, we laugh as loud we can, you know things like those I enjoy because over here I am suppressed and you know even in my language I am suppressed. You know when I want to speak my own linga I got to realise that you know you got white folks can hear I have to try to speak the spoken. That's why you see a lot of black people they try to speak the spoken and it come out the wrong way, you know if we allowed to be ourselves we would be happier.
  
  Int What changes have you seen in Wolverhampton since you arrived ?
  
  MB Wolverhampton, been quite a lot of changes because you know you can go back to the market place when we came it was where the civic centre was and there's been a lot of new developments. You have a lot more inter marriage , inter racial relationships, you know. Because when I first came here, you know in the West Indies when we walk as women our bottoms rotate you know as women and when I first came here I saw white ladies walking and not a hint of bottom. Honest and you know those were curious to me and I wondered what the hell's going on and my sister said 'oh they wear these girdles to keep themselves in', you know, so now we see people a lot more loose in their dress, their language you find black boys and white boys and Asian boys speak the same lingo you know the music and everything. We have changed, we have, black people have really changed, Wolverhampton Black, Asian and Ethnic people have really changed the structure and culture of Wolverhampton.
  
  Int Ok that's it really anything else that you wanted to say ?
  
  MB don't know, no, no for the future, you know, now you got to meetings and you hear these people talk about futuristics, you know and I would really like to know, OK you know we talk all about globalism, we talking about European links and what have you but what I'm saying for the future, what is the future of the children born here to inter racial couples ? what is the future of black children who have been brought up in the English society, brought up to be taught to be British ? Will we be treated exactly the same as they treated us because coming from the West Indies or from Barbados we came here as British citizens but we were never accepted as British citizens, you were accepted as a black person who had invaded their country - what is the future for black children who are here ?
  
  Int OK, thank you very much for talking to us.
• Access Status: Open
• Contact: Wolverhampton Archives, Wolverhampton Archives & Local Studies

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