• Reference Number: DX-624/6/18
• Ref No: DX-624/6/18
• Date: Feb 2000
• Level: Item
• Extent: 1 item
• Format: Mini-dv (video)
• Description: Language: English
  Running time: 60 minutes 00 seconds
  Partial transcript (Copyright BEME)
  Interviewer - O.K, right, we'll start the interview. I'll introduce myself, my names Pablo. I don't know if you've got an introductory page, a letter that Bobby had sent you.
  
  HR - I received a letter, I think this morning, introducing yourself and that's all I got.
  
  Interviewer - Well basically I'm a student at Glasgow University and I've come to sort of help with this project. And so moving onto the actual interview, could you tell us your name, place of birth and date of birth.
  
  HR - HR, I was born in Jamaica, St Thomas on the 20th of June 1946.
  
  Interviewer - And could you describe where St Thomas is and what kind of place it is?
  
  HR - St Thomas is situated in the East, in the East of Jamaica and it's a parish, can't remember how many there is or what the population there is, but mainly it is an agricultural, industrial area. And mainly the residents you know carry out farming as a source of livelihood, but there were a few factories such as the Goodyear as in Wolverhampton, and the Butler factory some years ago. I suppose in the 60s if I remember correctly and erm' there was a telephone factory and brush and broom factory and in the remote part going to Portland which is an adjoining parish there is a cane factory. It was over 30 years ago so I (laugh) remember bits of it.
  
  Interviewer - The cane is an important part of the area?
  
  HR - Yes, cane, bananas and coffee are an important part of the area.
  
  Interviewer - What was your family experiences like, where did they work?
  
  HR - Well my family - my father was a policeman and my mother was a housewife although she erm', we have lots of land and she use to sell produce from the land.
  
  Interviewer - What did she produce?
  
  HR - We had coffee, chocolate, bananas - erm' lime I can't remember anything else, citrus and
  
  Interviewer - And these things were sold locally?
  
  HR - Yes or they would be taken to the capital in Kingston to be sold
  
  Interviewer - So the style of life is much more sort of, the land is very more limp and the people live much more from the land
  
  HR - Yes but the connectation with the land, the connectation with slavery and the land was something that people did not want to do, unless it was on a large scale then the landowners - cause during slavery, the slaves weren't allowed to own lands and what emerged after slavery was the fear of skinned people who owned the land and monopolised the economic of Jamaica them. So the land was linked actually with slavery unless you owned lots and lots of land.
  
  Interviewer - How then did people begin to start making their lives, was there interest in one or two professional jobs instead of agriculture?
  
  HR - There was interests more towards professions but through education, there was definitely an interest in education. And education was seen as the vehicle actually, to acquire a status or to be socially mobile. But bearing in mind the fairer legacy that was reaped from slavery in fact the people were seen in places of positions rather than the darker skinned people.
  
  Interviewer - So colour was ????
  
  HR - Was always an issue until we got independence in 1962.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - 1865
  
  Interviewer - And that is a day that is celebrated ????.?
  
  HR - Yes, yes and as far as I remember until I left Jamaica in 1964.
  
  Interviewer - And how important was that?
  
  HR - Very important because it was seen as a day of freedom, perhaps it not celebrated so much as because independence was superseded the 1st August, but certainly in my mothers time, when she was younger, it was celebrated more, and seen as an important thing as a national day.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Yes, just as Independence day, Yes.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Well, if I remember correctly, there use to be dances and people celebrated in many ways, those who go to church, go to church, those who had street parties and dancing and so forth.
  
  Interviewer - So fun things
  
  HR - Yes fun things
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Yeah it was very important to my parents always pushed us to, you know, for education in terms of attending there were eight of us but although they couldn't afford even though my father was a policeman his pay was really very small. He compliment his pay with carpentry work. And they would encourage us to do well at school even though they couldn't afford to send us to grammar school, in those days because even then in Jamaica it doesn't have a structure where although education is free for all you still have to pay for higher education, and so it was difficult then but I personally went to school from when I was four.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - I think it was valued in most families and most people wanted their children to do well. I can remember even children from very poor families becoming doctors or lawyers because parents would sacrifice to make sure that their children get through and get the best education there is once they get the ability
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Yes, it was similar to my experiences because my mum, was an only child and she lost her mum when she was only seventeen and her dad died abroad. So she never got the chance to go through education system. My dad was more educated in that he had the chance to be a policeman even though he felt that he could of gone further but it was very important to us.
  
  Interviewer - And before you came over what significance did Britain have as a symbol of the Empire?
  
  HR - Well I think Britain was seen as the mother country and in fact we learnt more about Britain at school than we did about Jamaica, so we knew quite a lot about Britain before we came here. Because Jamaica was one of the British Commonwealth as well. And the symbolic thing was that my father was encouraged to come because he thought he could make, he could provide, make a better way of living for his family and would work for perhaps five years then return home to a better lifestyle.
  
  Interviewer - That was very common
  
  HR - Yeah
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Yes that's right
  
  InterviewerI -
  
  HR - Yes but I felt the African history wasn't taught and also because most of the history was verbal there was not much written certainly in the Carribean and of course people felt that slavery was something to be ashamed of.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - I think as I was younger yes, but as I grew older and certainly when I went back to the Caribbean I felt more assertive in that I felt that I belonged to Jamaica and could maintain my identity and be proud to be who I am and where I come from.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Seven brothers and sisters
  
  Interviewer - And where are you?
  
  HR - I'm fifth
  
  Interviewer - So what was your experience of childhood?
  
  HR - Doing everything (laugh) We have to be, sort of, look after the smaller ones and was very sort of industrious.
  
  Interviewer - Was it a hard working family?
  
  HR - Yes it was a hard working family, yes.
  
  Interviewer - And how did your education begin?
  
  HR - Yes it begun when I left, I finished school at sixteen, seventeen I was on my way here. So I came here - well in Jamaica the school system then was different in that you never had primary, secondary schools, we had one school called an all age school and you would stay there until you were seventeen, eighteen and after sixteen you would go up to and start to take your exams which is known in Jamaica. Jamaica third year, second and third year and that is equivalent to A levels and then you would either go to University or go abroad.
  
  Interviewer - And did you finish that stage?
  
  HR - Well I never finished that stage, I never got to third year because I came here when I was seventeen.
  
  Interviewer - And you came with your father?
  
  HR - No, no, our parents came before and we were left with a relative and then our parents sent for us, five of us came together.
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR -
  
  Interviewer -
  
  HR - Family yes.
  
  Interviewer - And was that an experience that was reflected in a lot of people who immigrated?
  
  HR - Yes they were either left with grandparents, aunties, uncles, we were left with our cousin because my parents never had, well my mother never had any sisters and my father's relatives had two brothers and one sister who wasn't very close.
  
  Interviewer - And was that a sad experience, how did you see it as your parents went away, was it an expectation that your parents would just have to go away?
  
  HR - Well, I think we understood I mean, for me I understood why they had to go and it was just accepted as a fact of life really.
  
  Interviewer - Money and work ?
  
  HR - Well it was in that, well, we just thought that we could get a lot of things that you couldn't normally get if it wasn't around.
  
  Interviewer - And so then what did you think England would be like before you came?
  
  HR - I thought, well, I don't know I conjure up an image of sun, similar to Jamaica I was quite disappointed when I came (laugh)
  
  Interviewer - When did you arrive? Can you remember what day it was?
  
  HR - I think it was a Tuesday, it was in May the eighteenth of may 1964 and it was absolutely cold and foggy when I got to London and when we got on the coach to come to Birmingham then I thought, oh gosh what a lot of factories and my mum said there not factories there houses.
  
  Interviewer - So did that disappointment extend for quite a while?
  
  HR - Yes I cried actually.
  
  Interviewer - And was it very difficult what did you find the most difficulty about?
  
  HR - Well, I think the difficulty was to settle down and to accept, you know, people didn't even understood, for instance, I remember Minny Small she was at the top of the chart singing 'my boy lollipop' and then, everybody would think that you were Minny Small (laugh). And I remember when I got m first job and in Birmingham and it was working in a factory and I was paid two pounds four and six a week . You were just there and there were nobody of my, from my sort of district or background. I remember there were two African girls they, you know, the culture was quite different and you actually were a stranger in a strange place, so it was very daunting actually.
  
  Interviewer - Was it at times very isolating?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - And then did you begin to miss home?
  
  HR - Oh yeah, very much so, I cried for probably a whole month.
  
  Intr - You said that your parents had a three year plan, when they came here, five year plan.
  
  HR - Five year plan.
  
  Intr - What was your plan?
  
  HR - Well, I wanted to, in fact I always wanted to be a doctor when I was young and I felt that perhaps if I got the chance I could, you know, do well, go back to college and get my qualifications for medical school, but then I though that may be I was to old for that.
  
  Intr - Why did you think you were too old?
  
  HR - Well, I was seventeen coming eighteen and I just thought you know, from an early age in Jamaica , I would, you would, if I was in Jamaica I would have taken my third year probably on my way to University.
  
  Intr - So you were lucky to find education?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - And did you find it?
  
  HR - Yes and no, I remember I started when I started to work and then I use to go to school at night, by the time you got home from work you were absolutely tired, and have to go to school again.
  
  Intr - How long were you there?
  
  HR - I spent about a year at evening classes and then I went into nursing.
  
  Intr - And you had to have a job in order to live?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - And at the same time you were studying for a career?r
  
  HR - To get into, somewhere.
  
  Intr - How difficult was that?
  
  HR - It was difficult in that I think I had to overcome some of the cultural barriers, there certainly was racism I think, but it wasn't identified as such, it was thought you were in a strange country, you were actually a stranger, obviously, probably you might be treated differently.
  
  Intr - Did you say you have a unclear notion of racism?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - Would you say that came much later?
  
  HR - It came a lot later for me and it's when I went back and came back that I realised that yes it was racism.
  
  Intr - The first time that you came, would you say that your experiences were very difficult to face?
  
  HR - Well, yeah it was difficult 'cause you felt that, I mean, as I say you felt that you were a stranger in a strange land, and it was almost as if you have to accept what is given to you and with that notion you didn't sort of question. Of course in between the first, second and third, fourth generation, you certainly, our parents never questioned anything, they were aware, I felt, that because there vision was to come here and work for five years they never really assimilated.
  
  Intr - Do you think that being from Jamaica and being a colony, did you think you had a position, did you have a place?
  
  HR - Well from history and from what I have read I realise that we have a place in British society, being one of the British colonies and being from the British Commonwealth and England being the mother country, but somehow you never felt you had a place.
  
  Intr - And you can never feel British?
  
  HR - And you can no never feel British.
  
  Intr - So then, the disappointment from your first visit meant that you went home. How did that decision come about to go home?
  
  HR - Well, I got married in the process and my husband and I went home. He got a job with the Jamaican government and I got a job by being a nurse.
  
  Intr - Did you meet your husband here?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - And was a lot of your hand o do with the fact that you were immigrants in a place, presumably was there less African Caribbean people in Wolverhampton at the time?
  
  HR - I wasn't from Wolverhampton, I was from Birmingham. No it wasn't I think we had, because my parents also belonged to the Pentecostal church and I think we almost had our own circle of friends, brethren, and church brothers and sisters, so you have youngsters that you grew up with. And you know there was that nucleus of Jamaicans if you like even though many of them were from different parts of Jamaica. But it was that bond that came from one island you almost have people that grew up with in those days being very close but you have support and community spirit.
  
  Intr - So the church provided much more other than a place of worship?
  
  HR - Yes
  
  Intr - Community?
  
  HR - Yeah there certainly was more bonding and community spirit and more caring for each other in those days than there are now.
  
  Intr - Were you glad to go back to Jamaica then?
  
  HR - It was a new experience because I went back now as an adult and I could actually see quite a bit, and be involved in quite a bit and come back very much more assertive and grown up and knowing what to expect and experience racism and can identify that, so was a good experience.
  
  Intr - How long were you here before you actually went back?
  
  HR - I was here nine years.
  
  Intr - They must have been long and hard nine years?
  
  HR - It was, yes, in the 60s and you know things weren't as they are now.
  
  Intr - And what was the racism like in the 60s?
  
  HR - In the 60s it was more blatant in that it was not covert it was overt although I can only say I've experienced it a couple of times, especially during my, not so much my training but during my work as a nurse. But it was very overt and there are some places black people were not allowed to go, and you weren't actually. There was a great divide between white and black, and in those days you had teddy boys, and all those so (laugh) it was quite different.
  
  Intr - And you were studying in the nursing profession?
  
  HR - Yep.
  
  Intr - How about forms of institutional racism at the time?
  
  HR - Well, most of my time, when I went into nursing first I lived in the nurses home, maybe it was compulsory for you to live in, and in those days there were nurses coming to train from all parts of the world. And so there was more or less one little family from different parts of the world, so it wasn't sort of identified as such you were more treated like children rather than racism. The matron would make sure you were in bed before 9 o'clock
  
• Terms:Childhood
• Terms:Leisure activities
• Terms:Immigration
• Terms:Religion
• Terms:Racial discrimination
• Terms:Employment
• Terms:Schools
• Access Status: Open
• Contact: Wolverhampton Archives, Wolverhampton Archives & Local Studies

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