Interview with Ned Williams
- Reference Number: DW-252/2/1
- Date: Aug 2019
- Level: Item
- Extent: 1 file (367260KB)
- Format: WAV Audio file
-
Description: FINDING YOUR FUNNY ROOTS PROJECT 2019
INTERVIEWEE: NED WILLIAMS. INTERVIEWER: JULIE NETTLESHIP
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW BREAKDOWN OF CONTENT.
TIME
CONTENT
0:00 ? 0:20 secs
Intro
0:15 ? 0:21
QUESTION: Can you tell me about when you first got involved with Black Country comedy?
0:23 ? 1:52
Autumn ?62 arrived in Black Country. Aged 18. Cultural ?shock?. Loved area at first sight. Felt daunted/distressed that people laughed at him for being a Londoner at first but came to like his ?outsider? status. Loved all aspects of Black Country.
1:56 ? 2:06
Looked at all aspects of Black Country. Wanted to do something with what he discovered. Encountered humour in local/everyday interactions.
2:21 ? 5:42
Felt he experienced his first comedy ?performance?. Dudley Pubs. The British Oak, live entertainment on a Sunday night.
Talks of how Bill Cotton performed ? bringing audience in to act which involved a ?pub tour?. Bill adapted his accent/dialect to reflect each new pub area he was in. Humour tied up with dialect. Very specific variations. People took pleasure in laughing at own quirks and others. Went from ?62 to mid-sixties.
5:58 ? 8:00
Christmas Carol Services at local Methodist chapels. Preachers seemed to ?vie? to be the funniest. Told the biblical stories in Black Country speech. Had an almost professional feel as there was also a ?compere? who stood at the pulpit. A double act of sorts. Recalls name of one preacher from Cradley Heath ? called Baker. Ned hadn?t expected to find humour used in this way.
8:39
Mentions when Chair of Black Country Society, tried to recreate that feel. Worked with Marlene Watson.
8:44
Also saw comedy at Working Men?s Clubs. Didn?t like the atmosphere there. Never found comedy funny. An intro to the world of the ?semi-professional? comedian. ?Stand-ups?,
though not in same way as today. (he makes no further detail on how differs). Mentions man who wrote book about his time on the circuit but gives no name. (I think this may be the book by Peter Bullock).
10:35
More reflection on comedy in working men?s clubs. Ned never found the comedy on these circuits as funny. Sometimes it had a Black Country twist, sometimes it was more ?neutral?
10:44 ? 14:18
Key point in 1967. Went to work at Wulfrun College in W-ton. Came across Dr. John Fletcher who had just left the college. He was thinking of how to create a Black Country Society. Current wave of ?local nationalism?. People defensive of their patch -i.e.: not Wulfrunian, but Bilstonian. Ned liked the idea of the wider Black Country
14:20 -16:05
Creation of ?Black Country Evening?. Dr. John Fletcher talking/lecturing. Jon Raven singing. Decided they needed humour, so found people who would come in as ?storytellers. Stories had a comic element. Often contained a variation of the Aynuk and Ali characters
16:07 ? 18:07
Black Country Society established ?68. John Fletcher wanted more of the evening events. ?69 hired Netherton Arts Centre. 3rd May put on ?A Black Country Evening?. Increased the entertainment content. Ned was stage manager. That line up was Dolly Allen, Jon Raven, Tommy Mundon, (new comedian at the time), Harry Harrison and Chris Gittins (Walter Gabriel in The Archers). Venue packed out.
18:08 ? 18:35
Recalls skills of Harry Harrison. A ?real master? of the anecdotal story.
18:40 -20.07
Recalls story of Chris Gittins ? couldn?t do regional accents no matter how he tried. Too long being ?Walter Gabriel?.
20:25
Describes performances as being delivered in local patois. It was new in 1969. Innovative. People realised this was the start of something special.
20:40
Development of the ?Black Country Night Out?. Two groups, each claiming to be the authentic BCNO. One group centred around Roy Hingley ? landlord of the Robin Hood. Built a theatre alongside the pub. Performers would mix and match between the rival groups. The events had lots of imitators.
22:13
Alan Smith appeared on the scene. Had a few partners performing as ?Aynuk?. BCNO became something of an institution. Humour remained Black Country.
23:07
Period when he was Dolly Allen?s chauffeur. Got real insight into how she worked. Appreciated her work much more than he had when just in the audience. Had thought her act was improvised, only then realised it was rehearsed and perfected. Never wrote he work down. She saw it as oral only. Worked on her routines whilst she worked at the factory. He feels what she did was like poetry. Dolly was going deaf at this time, so she couldn?t hear the audience response. Her timing went ?off?.
26:27
Variations in what was funny in one place to another. Hearing problem meant Dolly might miss these. Content of the act/story was ?thin?. The humour he thinks came from the dialect/her costume. Not a tangible thing
27:53
Aynuk and Ayli and Tommy Mundon were more joke tellers. Had a catalogue of material.
28:25 -29:16
More recent revival of the humour with Ian ?Sludge? Lees. Ned considers he does it well.
29:16 ? 32:35
QUESTION: Just going back to that night ? Saturday the 3rd of May, could you describe what that was like. What people looked like, and how it was?
Talks of being aware venue filling up. Mostly working-class white audience ? some upper working class ? teachers/social workers etc. Not an old audience as would expect now. Huge enthusiasm for it.
Talks of show being disorganised. His role as stage manager. Acts over running as audience wanted more. Thinks only disappointment for audience was that the final act was Chris Gittins- no longer at his best!
32:36 ? 33 mins
Excited. Justified in outing it on. Positive response. That?s why others tried to imitate it.
31:004 ? 33:22
QUESTION: Who was your favourite comedian?
They were different. Repeats some previous content on Dolly Allen. Continues memories of her to say she was very serious in reality. Comments that this a trait of other comedians. They ?switched on? to their comedic personalities as they walked from the wings. Talks about meeting Ken Dodd. Tommy Mundon even changed physically. Goes back to Dolly. Still impressed by her in her later career. He talked to her about her real-life story. When he heard other interviews with her, thought she had ?rehearsed? that too.
36:22
When Dolly dies, Ned tells her son he should write down her true story. Book called ?Hello my Lovelies? ? a Dolly catchphrase.
36:40
Refers to Harry Harrison again. Recounting of ?daily life? anecdotes. When Ned writing his books also came across Billy Butler in Gornal. Ned thinks there?s a ?Harry Harrison? in lots of places, each just known in their own patch. Humour fine-tuned to that specific region.
38:15
Mentions Billy Russell. He was once, Vice Pres. of Black Country Society. Ned regrets not talking to him more.
38:57
Ned has noticed that as people recall those people they found funny, some names appear over and over again. Many from before WWI. Mentions ?Garner? ? no first name. Almost a legendary pantheon of older comedians. Questions were they genuinely seen or just in the communal memory? We have recordings/photos etc of more recent ones as reference.
40:20
QUESTION: You have talked a bit about what made Black Country humour distinctive. Do you want to say any more about that?
Is it distinctive/as unique as people might think?
Pig on the Wall story. Not a Gornal legend. Common across coalfield regions. Shropshire, Burton, S. Wales. Universal story about the one place where the ?bumpkins? live.
Ned asks the question - Is what passes as Black Country humour, working-class humour in other areas. He would like to think there is something unique about BC humour other than the language, but doesn?t know what is. Suggests irony might be part of it.
43:27
Refers to Gornal comedians. Again, mentions no ?substance? in their stories. Recounts an actual nonsense story he heard to illustrate what he means.
44:15
Went to a Storytelling Café in Ireland. Found humour very similar. Says the ?jury is out? on the uniqueness of Black Country humour.
44:40
QUESTION: Do you have any favourite stories or jokes from that time?
Very elusive to recall them. Mentions his time working in various industrial settings. Remembers foreman at Round Oak steelworks. Says he was funny, but the humour wouldn?t ?survive the retelling. Recounts a story
47:23
Worked at labour exchange. People there also used humour when talking about losing their jobs.
48:02
QUESTION: How did humour influence your life?
Black Country has lots to enjoy. Humour just part of it. Wishes he could capture what it is about Black Country. Has written lots on dialect, but not trying to be funny when he did that, simply as a record.
50:03
Reflects on whether some people are inherently funny. Recalls Ken Dodd again here. Remembers people telling him how when they see some comedians they laugh as soon as they appear, before any story/joke been told. Mentions Laurel and Hardy, Tommy Trinder. The Crazy Gang.
52:15
Talks about Billy Dainty. Remembers event unveiling Blue Plaque to him. Jimmy Clitheroe performed a Dainty act. Ned says greatest experience. Whole audience physically consumed by laughter. Humour has enriched his life.
55:10
QUESTION: When was that?
2008 or 2009. Roy Hudd also there. Comments here on Roy Hudd though not connected to this event.
Ned says the recreation of BD act was the ?funniest twenty minutes of his life?, though he can?t remember what was actually in it or how Black Country it was.
56: 54
QUESTION: Did you go and see comedy with people or by yourself? Did you go with family/friends?
Both. If he liked something would then sometimes invite friends along to another event later. Was disappointing if they didn?t like it as much
1:00:27
Saw Lenny Henry do a two- hour, one-man show. In awe of that. Still those who can deliver.
1:00:52
QUESTION: I?m interested in what you were saying quite early on about the whole origins of the Black Country Society and how it came about. Can you say more about that and what effect it had?
Refers back to 1966 reorganisation of local government. Second wave of that in 1974. Four metropolitan boroughs. Renewed the feelings about ?local versus regional?. Ned a fan of the
?whole Black Country?. Most people prefer their ?patch?
Comments on de-industrialisation of the region. Ironic/sardonic humour comes out of this. Alleviates misery.
1:07:47
Mentions Doreen Tipton. Wonders if she is the ?new? Dolly Allen. He hasn?t seen her, so can?t say.
1:08:17
Mentions pantomimes. Not a regular attendee so doesn?t have much to say. People like Doreen Tipton do appear. Lots of local allusions/references.
1:09.00
Interview concludes. - Access Status: Open
- Contact: Wolverhampton Archives, Wolverhampton Archives & Local Studies